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THEKLA & RAYMOND: BEAUTY VERSUS RAW REALITY

They starred in two of Europe's most successful Netflix productions last year: Thekla Reuten (Bussum, 1975) in Warrior Nun, Raymond Thiry (Amsterdam, 1959) in Undercover. Series that are bingewatched worldwide. "I was addressed by complete strangers from Singapore: ' Are you the guy from Undercover? We watch it at home! '"MASTERS brings both ratings guns together.Text: Bart-Jan Brouwer | Online Editor: Natasha Hendriks
Image: Rahi Rezvani

You are sixteen years apart. What smells and sounds do you remember from before?

Thekla: "The smell of the moors - I grew up next to Bussumerheide, lucky bastard! The one of garlic and an onion in the pan. My mother cooked wonderfully and sometimes stood in the morning already preparing something for dinner. Or the smell of basil when she made pounds of pesto from her own basil plantation. And the smell of my father's jackets; he always had suits on. Sounds? "It's seven-thirty! - that's how I was called awake in the morning by my mother. Then my father was already in the bathroom at the end of the hallway, invariably with Radio 1 on. He had pretty high-maintenance hair. Every morning he washed it, then very sweetly draped the sparse hair he had left over his bald head and strengthened it with hairspray. It always sat flawlessly. I find very touching, in retrospect. That classic Wella hairspray is also part of the fragrance palette of my childhood."
Raymond: "My father couldn't smell, so I was his nose. All the products in the refrigerator I had to judge for freshness. Is the milk still good? Are these meats still OK? Does this shirt smell clean? And there was considerable smoking in our house. The drapes, curtains, the interior of the car: everything was soaked with nicotine. So smell always played a big role in my younger years. As for sounds, I always liked it when my parents were still talking in the living room, while I was in the little room next door waiting to fall asleep."

You have very different backgrounds. Thekla, your mother, a full-blooded Italian, worked with difficult-to-educate children, your father was a priest. How lovingly did they get along?

Thekla: "A marriage between a priest and the much younger daughter of Roman Catholic Italian ice cream makers, that was not how it was supposed to be, of course. But my father was a free spirit. He fought for gay and women's rights, criticized the Vatican ... And he felt that love was also part of the faith, part of everything he cared about. So they chose each other very consciously and the love between them I experienced as very natural - I saw how they looked at each other. At home things were always very gentle, there was never any shouting. My mother did sometimes get annoyed by things my father did. At such times the Italian temperament raised its head, but it was never loud. My father was obviously very grateful for everything my mother did, appreciated aloud, for example, the flowers she put down. He really enjoyed the food she made every night and carefully chose a nice wine to go with it. I always felt secure about the two of them."

What is the most important lesson you learned from your parents?

Thekla: "Taking care of each other, I think. And my father's winged words were 'don't fall out of each other's grace.' I like that so much. Argue, fight or fuss, always meet another with an open heart. It still resonates with me: keep seeing each other and keep connecting."
Raymond: "My father always said, 'Don't trust anyone, not even your best friends.' That was his motto. Quite different from 'don't fall out of each other's grace,' haha!"
What was the atmosphere like in the Thiry home?
Raymond: "Sometimes to cut corners. I did experience my father pinning my mother against the door with a Turkish sword in his hand, completely out of control. I stood between them as a little man. No idea what it was about, but the argument was unmistakably there. Still, home did feel like a safe haven, also because my grandparents lived next door. But not in the sense that it was only surrounded with love. It was more the family bond that gave an unconditional confidence that you were wanted."

Raymond, your mother died when you were nine. How did you experience that?

Raymond: "That was quite a blow. But yeah, life just goes on. That was kind of the attitude. As a child you don't know any better, you don't get a brochure of 'that's the way it's supposed to be.' Of course I was afraid of losing a parent. I always asked my mother, even when she was healthy, "You're not going to die, are you? And yet, the moment it happens, it's a matter of moving on. I also think a child is very flexible about that. The day after she died, I went back to school. Although I didn't keep that up all day. That was because all the girls rubbed up against me to comfort me. Then I ran home and spent the rest of the afternoon pasting mourning envelopes."

Thekla, when did you know you wanted to be an actress, what sparked you?

Thekla: "That has been a gradual process of cinema and theater visits. As a child, of course, I watched Annie and Pippi. At a slightly later, but still young age, my parents took me to see films like Cry Freedom. And I myself watched work by Ken Loach and Zhang Yimou in the movie house in Bussum, those social realist stories. That's where the inside of man came out, the underbelly of society. With Zhang Yimou I was suddenly in China, with completely different colors and smells and the social injustices he exposed. I wanted that too! To tell stories. Making people travel, broadening the view. To be part of the heart of life. My antennae were very much outward looking, including the big emotions. About what was bubbling up inside, about fears and desires. We didn't talk much about that at home. My father and mother did not get that. They weren't asked at home what they felt, no way! I was looking for that, I think, in theater and film stories: to learn about life, emotions, man-man-woman... everything! Starting in my teens, I went to the Youth Theater School in Amsterdam. I was serious about it, knew at quite a young age that I wanted something to do with acting."

You were accepted by both the drama school in Maastricht and the one in Amsterdam. What determined your preference for Amsterdam?

Thekla: "That was a very practical choice. I just knew then that my father was sick and liked being closer to home."
Raymond, like Thekla, you did the vwo, only didn't finish it. Where did it go wrong?
Raymond: "In the third grade at the Reformed Lyceum, I dropped out. I couldn't concentrate, was more preoccupied with cannabis. I did my homework in the coffee shop and when I was watching the Willem Ruis Show with my father in the evening, he would light up a Caballero and I would light up a joint. He couldn't smell huh, didn't notice anything. Sometimes he would come downstairs and I would sit with some friends in the former studio and it would be completely blue. Yet it never rang a bell with him. When I was sixteen I left school and the house. I lived in squats and lived on welfare. According to Social Services, I was "unemployable. They soon realized there: give that boy a few pennies, otherwise he's going to do strange things. At first it was one big voyage of discovery through party centers and nightclubs. I spent a lot of time in coffeeshops and teahouses, and had my own weed plantations in all kinds of places in the city: behind a fence on the Weteringschans, on the Ringdijk I had some growing wild, in my own garden... At harvest time I invited girls from school to come and pick weed. There were eight girls picking. Crazy!"

Raymond, when did you get into acting?

Raymond: "At twenty-one. I was sitting at three in the morning in Carels 3, a pub in De Pijp, reading an article about Willem Ruis in the Privé or Story. Above it the headline was this quote of his: 'First say yes, then think.' At that moment, a friend who took the directing course approached me. She was looking for people with no acting experience to be in a play of hers. Whether I wanted to participate. 'Yes, is good,' I replied immediately. I had never seen the inside of a theater before, but let myself be driven by the words of Willem Ruis: 'First say yes...' That's how it came about. So I owe my career indirectly to him."
Thekla: "Had you never had an urge to act before?"
Raymond: "I could imitate a lot of things before. For example, my grandmother dying. That moaning and stuff. Until my father said 'now it's over'."
Thekla: "Did you watch a lot of movies as a child?"
Raymond: "On television I liked to watch Rawhide. I could lose myself in a story. And also in the game. If we played cowboy & indie outside, I was totally into it."
Thekla: "That is the essence yes, that you can get absorbed in stories."
Raymond: "Acting has to come a little naturally to me. I'm not into methods, nor do I overly immerse myself before 'action' is called. I just read the story carefully, so I have a picture of the atmosphere. I try to respond to that, more with imagination than method."

Do you notice a difference with actors who are trained, that you have a disadvantage?

Raymond: "Backwardness doesn't. I sometimes miss a kind of confidence that people with degrees do have."
Thekla: "Several roads lead to Rome. Coming out of drama school, again, you don't have that experience of two years of acting that you had. And in the end, your acting really starts after school, by doing. In drama school you learn subjects and may develop your talents. But you gained your knowledge on the road."

Thekla, a year after your film debut, your father died. How did you go through that?

Thekla: "He was sick, so we lived towards it. In the end, I also realize what a great gift it is that you can go through that dying process together. My mother, brother and I were there when he took his last breath. I really liked my father's last thoughts that he still expressed clearly: 'To die is to merge into ... something eternal ... mystery.' That on your deathbed you dare to doubt God, even though you were a priest by the way. I think that testifies to something very powerful."

Raymond, your father died when you were twenty-one; you had now lost both parents. Weren't you left with unanswered questions?

Raymond: "It's not that I sit with question marks that I would like to have answers to. Anyway, life is one big question mark. Of course it was sad that I lost both my parents, but at the same time it felt like a liberation. That you think: okay, now I'm standing on my own two feet. It also gives a boost of 'I'm going to do it myself'."

You've lasted twenty-one years. Do you still get challenged at some point?

Raymond: "Gradually the cake was a little bit over, at least the cooperation. Ko clearly wanted something different. He no longer necessarily wanted to do a performance with all the members of the collective. That jarred us a bit. There was definitely a deep respect for the artistic direction, but at the same time a sense of pride that we were all doing it together."

Raymond, you were cut out for the role of hitman Luther in Penoza. Could you have even imagined that the role would have such an impact on your life when you read the script?

Raymond: "No. And it hasn't really changed my life either. I do have a good mood more often. During the photo shoot just now, I went to get a pack of cigarettes. In the ten minutes I was gone, three people wanted to take a picture with me. That makes me happy. I also only get nice reactions. The other day I was passed between the Ferdinand Bol and the Hobbemakade by a streetcar, Line 3. It slowed down, all of a sudden I hear loudly through the speakers: 'Bye Luther!' Once, too, a police car drove by. Opens the window: 'We're watching you, you know.' Haha! Since Luther, I can safely walk the streets of Amsterdam's poorer neighborhoods at night. For many loitering youths and criminal dudes I am a hero. The other day I was standing at a traffic light, a fat Mercedes stops next to me with four Moroccan Dutch in it, the window opens: 'Hey Luther, you should write a book about us, man!' After which they tore away at full throttle. The weird thing is, everyone wants a stage. Even criminals want their success to shine. They don't just want to run fat in a nightclub with their nicked dough, they want a book written about them, about what they do, the exciting situations they find themselves in. In their eyes, I kind of made it. I have a tough image - that comes with that role - and I get away with it. That's what they appreciate."

For almost a decade you played Luther. How does a character's psychology develop during such a long period?

Raymond: "Not! It's very unambiguous what I do. I was just a second, a soldier saving Carmen (Monic Hendrickx; ed.) from tenuous situations. There wasn't much more to play. While there was always a sexual tension between Carmen and Luther, it was never developed which could have led to more interesting game scenes. Somehow it could have been deepened so that I had just a little more to play with. Gradually it became more modeling. I had a pretty good handle on it, the character doesn't surprise you. There could have been a little more meat to it."

In 2009 you won the Golden Calf for best supporting actor for your role in War Winter, six years later you received the same award for your contribution to Blood, Sweat & Tears. What weighs more heavily for you: the recognition by the public or the statuettes on the mantelpiece?

Raymond: "Give me Line 3! I don't do it for the statuettes. But I do care. With the first Golden Calf I thought: that's a coincidence. With the second one I was like: I must be doing something right. Slowly a Wall of Fame comes into being at home and you realize that you are not such a loser. I am the first to always downgrade myself. That's just in me. Some people are very lucky with themselves, others feel they don't really matter that much. And I belong to the latter group. Which doesn't stop me from performing well."

As a native Amsterdammer, how did you feel about playing Joop Hazes in Blood, Sweat & Tears?

Raymond: "That was fun! André is from De Pijp; he was at school in the block where I lived. And of course I knew the pub culture that appears in the film, where the whole neighborhood sits around the tap with each other and everyone is each other's aunt and uncle. I don't particularly like André's music, but he is one of the few Dutch singers with soul. Songs like Bloed, zweet en tranen and Dit is de laatste keer really touch me."

Does a subway ever stop for you, Thekla?

Thekla: "No, never. I have the opposite of the Luther effect, haha. I can stand talking to someone who has seen a movie with me in it without them recognizing me. No idea why that is. But I don't find that unpleasant at all, because I'm very attached to my private life. When I am told something, it is usually about the Dutch drama series Tessa (2015) or the films Schone Handen (2015) and The American (2010), in which I play alongside George Clooney. In Germany, I did often experience being approached by fans. There they print pictures of you, that's much more in the culture there, and then they ask for an autograph. Very politely, 'Bitte, Frau Reuten...', but often a pack of ten photos, haha. From Germany a lot of Autogrammanfragen also come to my agent by mail. I played quite a lot in Germany. The crazy thing about me and the Netherlands is that I've done a lot of things that many people here have never seen. For example, Lucky Man (2016), a great series for Sky, in which I starred alongside James Nesbitt; the German films Hotel Lux (2011) and Da Geht Noch Was! (2013), a couple of BBC series ... For me, those were big steps. And the driver of Line 3 doesn't get that either, I think."

Your resume is bulging with international productions, including Sleeper Cell (2006), Lost (2008), In Bruges (2008) and just last year Marionette. Where does that urge come from?

Thekla: "I love language immensely, from an early age, even at school. I enjoy conquering them, those foreign languages. Soon after drama school I starred in a German film. And I lived in Los Angeles for a while and ran auditions there. The applications came my way and I could answer them in the sense that the language was not a barrier. I never felt Dutch, more global. I've acted in English, German, Italian, accented American ... I've even done scenes in Russian."

How different is it to play in another language?

Thekla: "You especially have to put a lot more effort into finding the ease you have in your native language. And then it starts to play out. I like that challenge. Each language also gives you something as a gift, a different sound, a different rhythm."

Has the rise of streaming services changed much for you as an actress?

Thekla: "Certainly, they allow a series to become global hype very quickly. It also emphasizes that we are global citizens. On the other hand, there is so much being made that there is also a high chance of being snowed under. Netflix can afford to take risks and gamble on that one big hit among the dozens of productions they make. That can produce extraordinary things. They didn't think Stranger Things would be such a huge success. The filmmakers were given the freedom to do what they wanted and it turned into something insane. A film producer bets on far fewer horses each year, which is more difficult."

Do you make a lot of friends on a set?

Thekla: "On a set you sometimes experience very intimate moments of people. You share an intense experience together, sometimes literally take a journey - that connects. But when filming is over, you may never see those people again, although sometimes a deep sense of friendship has developed. That's a very crazy thing that comes with this job. For twenty years, every job I did took place with new people in a different place. I experienced great things, but it's also very hard work to introduce yourself every time. start over, discover the code within such a group... I now very much long for repeatedly working with the same people."
Raymond, you were on stage with your friend for a long time. Like you, Raymonde de Kuyper began her career with Alex d'Electrique. How do you make it up: Raymond and Raymonde!
Raymond: "And then we also had a Ford RayMondeo, haha!"
In 2013, your relationship came to an end. What caused it to break down?
Raymond: "We didn't kiss wet anymore. But I still love that woman extremely much. I still see her every week, we even share a dog."
Thekla: "Quitting is not yet a failure. There doesn't have to be anything wrong to break up. Actor Lykele Muus wrote a book about it. He says, 'Our relationship wasn't a failure, it was just finite.'"
Raymond: "Some people write a book about it, others are sparing with information in an interview. I think I belong to the latter category when it comes to such personal things. Wet kissing I already find transgressive."

Is it also going too far to talk about having three teenage sons with other women?

Raymond: "No, I can't deny that either. I was chosen by two lesbian couples who wanted children. They do the hard work, the parenting. I'm not the guy who sends the boys to bed and takes harsh action for not doing their homework. I'm the fun daddy. I do fun things with them, we take adventures. And sometimes they call: "Hey dad, are you home? And then they usually prefer to hear that I am NOT home, because then they can use my house to party there."

Looking back, what have been the warmest, most familial productions?

Raymond: "Villa Achterwerk."
Thekla: "The most recent film, which I shot last fall, Narcosis by director Martijn de Jong. Maybe it also has to do with the fact that we were all very happy and extra grateful to be able to shoot at all in this corona time. It's the only film I did in 2020. And it was such a loving, fine and well-cooperative club."
Terry Gilliam once set out to make a film where everything went wrong. The documentary Lost in la Mancha was made about this production. Thekla, what is your personal Lost in la Mancha?
Thekla: "Waffenstillstand (2009), which was shot in Morocco. The setting was Baghdad in 2004, at the time of the Iraq war. It became a very complicated film because, totally unexpectedly for the time of year, it started raining very hard in the desert. It looked like the Wadden Sea! In some places even blades of grass began to grow. We had to pull them away together so we could shoot. It was a kind of guerrilla filming. If one location was under water, we tore off in our van - hup! - on to the other. 'Quick, now this bit of the scene we couldn't finish yesterday!' The catering couldn't keep up with us, so lunch became a pack of cookies; we were pelted with rocks somewhere else, which was very frightening... In the end, the film got there, and you don't see any of the setbacks."

What do successful Netflix series like Warrior Nun and Undercover mean to you? That you can command a better contract?

Thekla: "In America it does work that way, yes."
Raymond: "Maybe I'll gain a few hundred euros. But I'm already in the top tier, already belong to the Ajax of Dutch acting."
Thekla: "It mainly brings extra fame, because an awful lot of people have seen it or know about it."
Raymond: "I was addressed in Bordeaux by complete strangers from Singapore: 'Are you the guy from Undercover? We watch it at home!' That's nice."

How do you undergo this corona time?

Raymond: "I live by the day, can easily adapt to new situations and don't need people around me all the time. And most of the movies and series I starred in just went on. I've been tested as many as 30 times in the past few months. Next week I have an interview about the sequel to Dead Silence. And I'm going to make a German film next summer."
Thekla: "I don't want trouble for anyone, of course, but I like the quieter, quieter world. And the downtime gave me time for something I always wanted to do: develop my own projects. I am now developing a film with a wonderful writer, and I am enjoying that process immensely. Also, well before corona, I was approached by comedian and programmer Ikenna Azuike to collaborate on a television series, which I am also very excited about. And I'm looking forward to the second season of Warrior Nun in May. Corona volente, if Corona wants it of course."

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